we_meet_again | Phone inbox

Cobalt: i bet!
Cobalt: were you able to get things worked out or is this still unresolved?

Eclipse: I haven't talked to her since the end of the game.
Eclipse: I don't know how to handle her when she gets angry like this
Eclipse: This was a dumb argument that shouldn't have had to happen

Cobalt: is this kind of thing something that happens a lot?

Eclipse: Not necessarily getting angry
Eclipse: But she gets stubborn about the things she believes in, especially when it involves the people she loves
Eclipse: Which I can understand but lately I've been feeling more uncomfortable with it

Cobalt: i can understand why that would be frustrating, certainly
Cobalt: but what specific part about it is making you uncomfortable?
Cobalt: can you tell?

[ It takes a while for a response to come, like he's been figuring out how to put his feelings into words. ]

Eclipse: I think it was how it felt she had decided our viewpoint was 'wrong'
Eclipse: She kept repeating about how important her relationships were to her and how she wouldn't have lasted without them, and I don't disagree about that
Eclipse: But she argued back as if what Mars had expressed and the fact I defended him was somehow demeaning her bonds
Eclipse: As if she stopped trying to understand what we meant because what we had said didn't align with her own experiences on the matter
Eclipse: It's bloody stupid, because I think you can still value your relationships while admitting these relationships can be used against you or hurt you
Eclipse: That's just facts
Eclipse: But because it involves her precious people she must have felt she was in the right and that's what bothers me

Cobalt: hmm
Cobalt: it sounds like the problem is not really about the subject you were arguing over, but more like ...
Cobalt: her unwillingness to accept the fact that people's needs/values/preferences aren't "one size fits all"?
Cobalt: because otherwise mar's opinion wouldn't minimize hers, right? and therefore her opinion wouldn't need to be defended?

Eclipse: Yeah, that's about right
Eclipse: She's been through a lot here and back home but I don't think she has a lot of experience with worldviews that are very different from hers, or if she does then she doesn't remember it yet
Eclipse: And I guess I'm just not comfortable with how it feels like' loved ones' is some kind of excuse here and what happened in that free for all death match
Eclipse: Mori talked to her and got her to calm down but this shouldn't have been a fight to begin with

Cobalt: when disagreements like this happen, is the subject of "loved ones" the unifying factor?
Cobalt: like, is "loved ones" just a super touchy subject for hiryuu, regardless of the alignments of everyone's worldviews?
Cobalt: or is that just something else that's overlapping coincidentally, like in this case, with the argument that happened during this last game?

Edited 2019-02-04 10:41 (UTC)

Eclipse: No, we've disagreed about other things before though those doesn't always mean arguments
Eclipse: Loved ones is probably one of the things she feels strongest about regardless

Edited 2019-02-04 10:55 (UTC)

Cobalt: she is very passionate about the people she loves, it's true
Cobalt: and it's also true that she can be pretty unyielding in the heat of the moment
Cobalt: which can be both a good or a bad thing!
Cobalt: it's good to have resolve but bad if you use it to hurt people, i think
Cobalt: you said mori talked to her and calmed her down
Cobalt: was she able to come around and understand your point of view eventually?

Eclipse: I'm not sure?
Eclipse: Mori explained and she realised stepped over the line but that's not really the same as understanding where this kind of thinking comes from
Eclipse: I probably won't know until I talk to her
Eclipse: I just don't like the idea of our point of view being treated as being wrong

Cobalt: yeah, everyone copes with things a bit differently and as long as you're not hurting yourself or others then it's probably fine
Cobalt: ...
Cobalt: ...do you suppose she thinks coping in a way that's different from how she does it is harmful?
Cobalt: in that case, wouldn't you also count as loved ones she's trying to protect, even if it's from yourself?
Cobalt: 🤔
Cobalt: i mean, i don't know, i'm just spitballing

Eclipse: Maybe not 'different' from her exactly, it's more she doesn't seem to be able to relate to why someone might wish or want to reject relationships to try and protect themselves
Eclipse: Because in her experience her relationships are what gives her strength and help her get through things and being alone is removing that support
Eclipse: The thinking that relationships are just another way the world can hurt you probably seeems bizarre and harmful to her
Eclipse: I don't agree with it either because people need other people, like it or not
Eclipse: But the fear that they can be used to hurt you and not wanting to experience that isn't some kind of shameful or baseless emotion to have either because that's also being human
Eclipse: And Mars has been through some shit where I can get why that kind of response is tempting or even seems like the better alternative
Eclipse: So I don't know, it'd be nice to help him be more comfortable with having bonds but I don't want to
Eclipse: What's the word, invalidate? Invalidate those unpleasant feelings either
Eclipse: Hiryuu just ended up sounding like she thought that something is wrong with him in my opinion

Edited 2019-02-05 05:48 (UTC)

Cobalt: nah, i get it
Cobalt: everyone has different needs when it comes to how we relate to other people
Cobalt: some people are introverts, some are extroverts; some need a lot of friends and some people only want one; everyone has different comfort zones when it comes to trust and vulnerability, etc
Cobalt: it's all as varied and individual as our tastes in food and music, for example. none of it's right or wrong, it's just ...whatever works for a person is what works.
Cobalt: but i think i'm preaching to the choir here
Cobalt: it's a kind thing to want to help a person become more comfortable, if their current way of coping is not actually working for them
Cobalt: but telling a person that their way is wrong, when it's a totally subjective thing, is probably just going to raise someone's hackles instead of making them agree
Cobalt: that may be the case for mars, but also for hiryuu. maybe she thought mars was saying that *her* way was wrong and she felt like she had to defend herself...? i don't know, i wasn't there. :/
Cobalt: but i'm sure the fact that this conversation happened in the middle of a really stressful situation when everyone was feeling high-strung and desperate probably didn't help anyone, huh?

Eclipse: She assumed he was saying we should follow his advice
Eclipse: And it happening during a 'choose someone to live' kind of thing didn't help
Eclipse: I guess at the end of the day I'm upset I was arguing with someone who had decided we were already wrong and was trying to defend the meaning of her bonds while I was trying to tell her we weren't attacking them to begin with
Eclipse: At least I felt that way
Eclipse: That she had good intentions doesn't really change the fact that she was as much of an asshole as the rest of us about it
Eclipse: And to be honest

[...Theres a pause before 'Eclipse is typing starts up again.]

Eclipse: I'm kind of tired of hearing about things being done for the sake of loved ones
Eclipse: That's most people here anyway, does it need to be said?
Eclipse: Telling people that just feels like using them as an excuse for the things we do

Edited 2019-02-05 08:30 (UTC)

[this time there's a bit of a delay before the reply comes back]

Cobalt: yes, i think i do understand that feeling
Cobalt: this is something i have been thinking about a lot, especially lately
Cobalt: not about hiryuu, specifically, just this ...sentiment, that "if you're defending a loved one, any action is acceptable"
Cobalt: i've heard it from sensitiv, wild city, hss, even some members of peppep
Cobalt: ...is it easy to forget, in the heat of the moment, that just about everyone here is loved by someone?
Cobalt: and that none of us want to see our important people get hurt?
Cobalt: and that doing a bad thing in defense of someone doesn't make it less bad?

[a pause]

Cobalt: i guess maybe some people don't care about that. as long as the people they like are okay, everyone else can just die
Cobalt: but i don't really see how that attitude is supposed to be something noble
Cobalt: or why people can tell me "i did it to protect someone" as if i'm supposed to say "oh, okay, i see, nice job"
Cobalt: like it makes it better somehow

Cobalt: i dunno, am i being too judgemental?
Cobalt: reality-check me, eclipse

Eclipse: I don't know about judgemental
Eclipse: I'm probably not the best person to ask that since I largely agree with you about this
Eclipse: But I don't think you're saying it's wrong that people want to protect others so it's not like you're being an asshole
Eclipse: Anyway the kind of place we're in means hurting and killing other people is bound to happen at some point
Eclopse: Has already happened and will happen again in the future
Eclipse: And like you said there are people here where the whole murder thing isn't really an issue they're concerned with if it means keeping people they care about safe
Eclipse: Personally I think it isn't so much that people forget that others have loved ones as it is that people don't really care
Eclipse: I don't even mean that in a bad way, it's just kind of how people work
Eclipse: In a situation where lives are on the line it's pretty natural to prioritise people you care about over ones you care less about
Eclipse: Though obviously how a person handles that sort of thing varies
Eclipse: So I guess then, there are people who will tell it as it is so to speak, and it doesn't feel like they're trying to pretend what they did wasn't selfish or an asshole move
Eclipse: And people where the whole 'loved ones' thing sounds like they're dressing up what happened to make it sound better and nobler than it actually is

Eclipse: Is that the part that bothers you? When it feels like people are dressing it up?

Edited 2019-02-06 07:37 (UTC)

Cobalt: ...I guess so?

Cobalt: anyway, no, i don't think it's wrong to want to protect people
Cobalt: even if it means hurting someone else sometimes
Cobalt: and you're right, this place puts us into situations where murder becomes non-optional all the time. it happens.

Cobalt: ...sorry, i think i conflated a bunch of different things at once in my rant above
Cobalt: i'm still really angry about a whole lot of stuff and don't have any reasonable place to direct it, so my feelings are very disorganized
Cobalt: let me think about this for a sec

[a pause]

Cobalt: ...i might actually be too angry to be rational about this, wow
Cobalt: i started writing out the reasons why i'm mad and i realized that most of it is things that are unfair and unavoidable and unfixable and maybe aren't even anyone's fault

Cobalt: man, i'm sorry. i think i derailed this conversation

Eclipse: Things being unfair and unfixable doesn't mean you can't be mad about it anyway
Eclipse: It might help to get them off your chest?

Cobalt: i'm angry about violence being a first resort
Cobalt: i'm angry about violence when it's unnecessary to begin with
Cobalt: i'm angry that someone shot my most important person out of nowhere in the game
Cobalt: i'm angry that my most important person escalated and hurt both himself and a bunch of other people
Cobalt: i'm angry about how unfair it was that my other friend, who is immortal, attacked my most important person, who was already dying, while calling him a coward and a cheater
Cobalt: i'm angry that she used me as a weapon against my most important person in order to provoke a fight that wasn't necessary in the first place
Cobalt: i'm angry my friend took a bad situation and forced it to be something way worse, even when i was trying so hard to stop it
Cobalt: i'm angry that my most important person escalated that, too, even though it meant certain death for him and he knew it
Cobalt: i'm angry that neither of my friends listened to me at all when i begged them both to stop
Cobalt: i'm angry that letting my most important person get killed in a really bad way right in front of me was literally the best option available at that point
Cobalt: i'm angry that he was killed
Cobalt: i'm angry when someone tells me "i'd die to protect my loved one" as if that's noble, or unusual, like we don't all feel exactly the same way
Cobalt: i'm angry because that sentiment sounds so virtuous but is actually extremely selfish, because dying means forcing your loved one to carry a burden more painful than death itself, a burden even you refuse to carry
Cobalt: i'm angry that my friends don't seem to value their own lives
Cobalt: i'm angry that my friends don't seem to care that them getting hurt hurts me too
Cobalt: i'm angry that my feelings are just not something anyone seems to give a crap about whenever it really matters
Cobalt: i'm angry that they die and come back to life and are fine, meanwhile i'm still grieving their deaths that they've already recovered from, and i can't seem to stop
Cobalt: i'm angry because people should be allowed to protect their loved ones i guess but why does it have to be at the expense of me and my loved ones?
Cobalt: i'm angry because i'm certain in the future i will probably do this same thing to someone else and i already hate myself in advance
Cobalt: i'm angry at myself because hiryuu apologized to me and we worked it out, and she even saved my most important person's life even after he hurt her in a HORRIBLE way, and yet i can't seem to stop being upset about everything anyhow
Cobalt: i'm angry that i finally got some closure and things are starting to go back to normal but actually i'm still devastated and frightened and fragile and i really just want to let it all go and stop thinking about this and move on and be okay again

Cobalt: ...among other things

[ As the words pour out, Eclipse is struck by how much there is. That Cobalt has been holding onto these thoughts for at least a while now, and from the sounds of it hasn't gotten a lot of chances to voice them out. Some of them are probably being put into words for the first time, he thinks.

He doesn't really know what to say. As Cobalt had said earlier -- some of these are things that Eclipse can't do anything about. In fact, some of these are just things no one can do anything about; in this place, maybe even elsewhere. Things that you just have to live with and find your own way to deal with, for better or worse. Eclipse knows that, but... ]

Eclipse: I'm sorry things turned out that you ended up feeling like this
Eclipse: And I know you said it's not entirely related to Hiryuu, but what happened in the game seems to have given you a lot of things about
Eclipse: I also feel that saying things like "I'd rather die than let my loved ones get hurt" is actually selfish
Eclipse: In the end that's still just shoving things onto those same loved ones
Eclipse: It's hard when the people we care about say they're willing to sacrifice their own lives for things they believe in
Eclipse: Even though they may also say it's not like they're keen to throw themselves on the blade
Eclipse: I don't think it's wrong to be upset even if you worked things out
Eclipse: It's not as if just an apology and words and even gestures to make it up to you is going to magically change what happened and the fact you were hurt

[ ... ]

Eclipse: I'll let you in on a secret
Eclipse: Even after hearing the explanation, knowing the hows and whys and being apologised to, I don't think I can fully forgive King and Hiryuu for what they did running off to summon Heaven
Eclipse: I don't hate them but all the desperation and good intentions in the world can't change that we had to pay for the consequences of their actions
Eclipse: So I think you have the right to be as upset as you feel

Cobalt: i don't know if it even has anything to do with "having a right" to feel a certain way, it just is what it is
Cobalt: as i said, all of these things are just... things that happen, and there's really not much that can be done, to the point where it feels irrational to even complain about them in the first place.
Cobalt: regardless of whether i'm entitled to these feelings or not, there they are! i just have to figure out how to work through them, and do my best not to use them to hurt others
Cobalt: i'm doing my best, and i'll get there, it just feels hard right now

Cobalt: anyway it's true, even though king and hiryuu didn't mean to hurt you, they still did
Cobalt: and an apology can help relieve some bad feelings but it doesn't undo the thing that happened
Cobalt: and now these feelings are something we have to carry whether we like it or not and it just really sucks
Cobalt: i'm sorry that happened, eclipse

Eclipse: I know
Eclipse: I guess what I'm trying to say is that we shouldn't feel like something is wrong with us for having those feelings
Eclipse: I'll have to actually talk to Hiryuu sooner or later
Eclipse: Except I'm not sure if there's any way to have that conversation honestly without hurting her feelings

Cobalt: sure. even though i'm frustrated by not being able to control the way i feel about stuff, i think it's still pretty normal to be upset about things that are upsetting
Cobalt: and maybe some people would be able to process this differently, or even better, than i can, but i'm not them, and i'm not going to trivialize my pain by comparing myself to someone else. if that makes sense.
Cobalt: we all have to deal with stuff in our own ways, and that's okay.
Cobalt: it sounds like maybe you already know this, though, and maybe the thing that's hard for you is when you feel like someone else is judging the way you feel your own feelings?

Cobalt: maybe hiryuu just doesn't realize how she's coming across?
Cobalt: i'm certain she's not trying to hurt you on purpose. she's probably just not aware of how her words sound to you.

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